Buddy Rich today!

[matricks]

I think you're out of your mind. I'd ask you to go back and read my first respose above. And next time, think before you think.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why thank you but i do indeed think before i think, and even before i talk. You haven't said anything on here that is compelling in the least to push your point. One-liners don't cut it, especially if you're gonna be throwin' attitude in my general direction, you better do a better job than what you have done so far if you wanna stutter my step.

Buddy, to me, didn't cause a shockwave in HIS GENRE like Tony did when he came on the scene. I don't see anything in Buddy's playing that makes my jaw drop in the same fashion that other player's do.

Go ahead and provide a one-line response and feel good for stickin' up for your daddy, but it still isn't gonna change the fact that Buddy didn't change things the way that other players have. I'm not taking anything away from his one-handed roll, just stating my opinion... doing a little thinking out loud (contrary to what some may think).

[matricks]

In responce to your point about Louie, that may well be a direct quote from Miles, but you can't simply throw it in and use it to say that " no drummer has played anything that Buddy didn't play before them. It simply isn't true and my point still stands. Name me one recording where Buddy is playing complex metric modulations, time over time and odd times over the barline. He didn't. Why? Because it wasn't in his vocabuary, Buddy was essentially a BeBop drummer, listen to his Big Band and small group recordings. Yes he dabbled in 'funk', but you only have to listen to the way he played to hear that although he was one of the most technically advanced drummers, his vocabuary was born out of swing/bop drumming.

Vinnie's was NOT. He went to Berkley, studied with Gary Chafee and learnt whole systems of note values, odd times and complex polyrhythms that although Buddy may well hinted at on the way, it was nothing like the way Vinnie/Dave et all play today.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, what he said.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 11, 2005 02:01 PM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>

[Dazzler]

I think Tony would have run cirles around him for overall sickness.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that what music and drumming is about to you? SICKNESS? Do me a favour... may I suggest you read our new member, SBDrums' post about his recent gig and then then tell us what SICKNESS has to do with playing music, making people smile and dance?

I just don't see the deal with BR besides the fact that he had bad-ass chops, technique-wise. To me he didn't innovate anything like countless others did. Ask people why they like Buddy and i don't think alot are going to say because of his musical innovation... it is cause he could burn and shred it.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow..... where do I start? Firstly by asking you if you're out of your mind?!?! I take it that due to the fact you post on this board Matricks you are a drummer and have seen the Buddy Memorial concerts? If the answer is yes, then I won't bother replying to your above quote. I'll simply say put them back on and then listen to the reasons that Vinnie/Dave/Gadd/Gregg/Smitty etc etc gave for Buddy being a HUGE influence them.

Was it because he was technically fast and advanced and could 'shed' as you so eloquently put it? Or was it because he swung like an express train, played with taste, dynamics, phrasing, musicality and pushed the boundaries of drumming?

[dr-funkenstein]

Spug from mudvayne is a far superior drummer to Chick Webb because CW was only able hint at the double bass chops and musical concepts that future generations have in their back pockets nowadays.

buddy rich told me he hated this thread . . .
but i find that it keeps me laughing.

[got_a_matchgrip]

Round 5! *DING!*

Yoda:
Big Band / Who Plays Real Jazz thread, this has become...very perplexed, i am...

Sorry, guys. I didn't intend to come in here & contribute to triteness.

I've already OVERstated my case on this matter, & I stated it initially in the way I did because I find these types of topics kind of absurd anymore, esp from longtime members. Am I saying every post I've ever made in here is somehow gospel or wasn't a result of boredom or something?! No, but I have tried not to do that much.

This smacks of the old, endless, tired, & stupid "VC vs DW" threadS. Somehow I don't think it was nec orig intended to end up this way, but when a topic like this is presented, you inevitably have this type of fracas, & we should all have learned this in here by now. As Dazz said, the thought really becomes pointless in short order.

It's one thing to discuss a players approach to a certain style, but it is quite another to compare some guys, & from a diff style & era no less. If we can't look at VC & BR & intuitively & innately understand each's strengths, then we need to take a hiatus & think things over for a long time w/out boring others on forums with this awful infantile trite. Because it almost always inevitably becomes one person's opin of a fave against another's. Boring & pointless dreck.

I agree w H2 when he says that VC's prowess doesn't make BR ANY LESS the great muso he was, NO DOUBT. & I kept reiterating that. But this is just common sense, people!

BR was & is a phenomenal MUSICIAN who's instrument happened to be the drumkit. And his forte was BB-swing-jazz, which he played with a fury rivaled at the time by only a select few [who were "in the limelight," anyway].
Everything Dazz said about him has been spot on.

I just feel that Vinnie is a breed apart from most everyone in the drumming world, someone who's style is SO unique that very few if any mirror what he does. Novak can have some of the VC mojo, in his own way, but other than that...& why would anyone want to be a VC clone anyway. I consider guys like Dave W, Gadd, Tony, & Virg in VC's league as truly unique pioneers [even tho VD seems to be one who doesn't choose to play jazz, but rather, fusion - & lets not AGAIN get into what genre of jazz is what, PLEASE, as that's stupid too, it's common sense stuff], as BR was in his heyday [& still applies to the BB style today].

There have been & are many great BB drummers in our day & in the past, of which BR was top dog, but there is only one Vincent C.

It is a stupid thing when we label a guy "the world's best" this or that, because there's so much diversity, & so many GREAT players anymore in diff styles, that it would be absurd to say it.

But I say again, Buddy was a phenomenal swing drummer...an incredible muisician. In all those so-called "drum battles" [meh], there wasn't anyone i remember who went up beside him that could take away from his agility & ability to drive a BB horn section right up the ol' archway until they looked like a conehead. Am I somehow saying he wasn't a great muso by speaking of another great muso? NO! But thses subjects are pointless to me, & have been beaten here to death MANY times over YEARS past, so, I kind of posted with a little salt. I kind of new it would take it here, & it jerked my chain. Maybe I should've had better foresight, because I know better. But the topic is so inane that I had to reply this way.

And this whole biz of "drum battles" & "drum offs" That's fine, to a point. But it's mostly for the novelty to the non-muso, & for kids & grandma & grandpop. Altho the BRMSC is not a "DB," but rather indy "clinics" of each muso, & a collective finale that is quite impressive & enjoyable. Eh, I ramble.

There's no need to ask oneself [or others] how great so-&-so can hang w this other so & so, when their own ability is a testament to itself, & that is enough.

Anyway...Buddy AND Vinnie are incredible musicians, each within their own right.

*Final bell sounds*

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 11, 2005 03:18 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[Dazzler]

What he said! [img]wink.gif[/img]

[matricks]

I think the American-Brit language barrier is at work here Dazz.

SICKNESS is when you look at someone and go "WOW"... it isn't chops per se.

Second, sure Buddy could swing like a freight train, but that doesn't make someone an innovator does it? Buddy wasn't the first person to swing his ass off, but maybe he was the first to do so and have chops (like his) to boot.

Buddy defined his genre, yes. However what i find SICK (i.e. makes me go "WOW" as in not speaking of chops only, but overall wow, i.e. not speaking of chops only, but overall...) is when someone can RE-define a genre.

That is what is SICK to me (in a non-chops way).

[matricks]

Is that what music and drumming is about to you? SICKNESS? Do me a favour... may I suggest you read our new member, SBDrums' post about his recent gig and then then tell us what SICKNESS has to do with playing music, making people smile and dance?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is part of being 'sick'... it is an overall term, do yourself a favor and don't get all worked up over it so easily.

Or was it because he swung like an express train, played with taste, dynamics, phrasing, musicality and pushed the boundaries of drumming?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Never said he didn't, but i am not one to get on my knees every time Buddy unzips. Maybe i am from a different generation to which others have built upon what Buddy has left behind, and that is why i don't "get it"...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 11, 2005 03:21 PM: Message edited by: matricks ]</font>

[five eight]

A drummer from Buddy's era told MD that when Buddy went from big bands into a smaller bebop outfit he had to be told not to drop bombs on one. That doesn't sound too funky to me.

Even drummers during Buddy's time considered him in a class by himself, i.e. they only had to measure themselves against every other drummer in the world except Buddy. I think that probably holds true today.

Like every drummer I appreciate Buddy very much for his amazing chops, great showmanship and intense attitude. I love to hear him drive a big band.

But when it comes to trios, quartets and quintets I'm a Tony-man myself. [img]cool.gif[/img]

[got_a_matchgrip]

What they said. [img]wink.gif[/img]
[img]cool.gif[/img]